1 00:00:21,170 --> 00:00:16,300 [Music] 2 00:00:23,420 --> 00:00:21,180 well in 1960 my we returned from Okinawa 3 00:00:24,970 --> 00:00:23,430 my dad was Air Force and he was 4 00:00:27,290 --> 00:00:24,980 stationed at Patrick Air Force Base 5 00:00:30,499 --> 00:00:27,300 which as you know was just down the road 6 00:00:32,930 --> 00:00:30,509 from Cape Canaveral so I went to high 7 00:00:37,930 --> 00:00:32,940 school there I was a freshman there and 8 00:00:43,250 --> 00:00:37,940 saw the launch of Sheppard and Glen and 9 00:00:45,170 --> 00:00:43,260 I loved math and science ah that's what 10 00:00:47,030 --> 00:00:45,180 I want to do and since dad was Air Force 11 00:00:48,979 --> 00:00:47,040 need been an Air Force pilot I always 12 00:00:49,939 --> 00:00:48,989 loved airplanes and one said I said okay 13 00:00:52,729 --> 00:00:49,949 this sounds great 14 00:00:54,979 --> 00:00:52,739 so going into high school and then I got 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:54,989 interviewed by the Dean of engineering 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:56,610 at Florida State University and they 17 00:01:03,710 --> 00:00:58,250 were looking for co-op students 18 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:03,720 specifically for NASA so I said okay I 19 00:01:08,539 --> 00:01:05,760 went to Florida State in the engineering 20 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:08,549 school and astronautical engineering 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:12,060 wound up coming to Marshall to as a 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:17,250 co-op student in 65 and it was amazing I 23 00:01:22,220 --> 00:01:19,170 mean to come here and so much was going 24 00:01:25,190 --> 00:01:22,230 on and everybody was so busy and we were 25 00:01:27,110 --> 00:01:25,200 just all heads down trying to get ready 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:27,120 and you know it didn't matter that I was 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:29,730 a co-op it didn't matter that I was 19 28 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:30,450 years old 29 00:01:35,149 --> 00:01:33,240 so got into a lot of good work really 30 00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:35,159 quickly and got to do some things that 31 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:37,230 really kind of showed me what 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:39,870 engineering was I'm not sure people that 33 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:41,250 go into engineering school really know 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:43,290 what it is and I think here it's special 35 00:01:47,750 --> 00:01:45,450 anyway but that really hands-on 36 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:47,760 experience was wonderful and going back 37 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:49,530 to school it was kind of multi 38 00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:51,570 motivational both directions really 39 00:02:02,620 --> 00:01:59,380 I reported to Marshall signed in the 40 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:02,630 next day they sent me out to school I 41 00:02:08,050 --> 00:02:05,510 just come back from school but they sent 42 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:08,060 me out to IBM and I had to learn to 43 00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:09,920 program a computer because as you know 44 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:12,190 we are it was early in the computer age 45 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:15,620 so they sent me off off post to IBM and 46 00:02:22,510 --> 00:02:19,490 what I had to learn was machine language 47 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:22,520 because that's what we coded in so 48 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:24,920 everything was machine language commands 49 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:27,140 there was none of this basic and Fortran 50 00:02:32,050 --> 00:02:28,970 and all that stuff didn't even exist and 51 00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:32,060 we only had I think somebody's told me 52 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:34,760 one time about 275 K of memory on the 53 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:37,850 whole bird so the whole trick was to be 54 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:41,840 able to put as much process into as few 55 00:02:46,030 --> 00:02:44,060 steps as you can get because you really 56 00:02:47,140 --> 00:02:46,040 had to compress the memory so that was 57 00:02:49,930 --> 00:02:47,150 the challenge for programmers 58 00:02:51,610 --> 00:02:49,940 fortunately I wasn't a programmer but I 59 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:51,620 could understand it well enough to do my 60 00:03:02,140 --> 00:02:56,050 real job which was punching data into 61 00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:02,150 data cards physical paper cards that we 62 00:03:07,330 --> 00:03:04,400 generated a stack about this long and 63 00:03:09,699 --> 00:03:07,340 fed them manually through a printer what 64 00:03:11,740 --> 00:03:09,709 all those cards were were data from the 65 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:11,750 flight tests of the Saturn and the 66 00:03:16,509 --> 00:03:14,090 engines because what we were trying to 67 00:03:19,330 --> 00:03:16,519 do was make sure the trajectory was 68 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:19,340 refined you had to know the weight and 69 00:03:22,570 --> 00:03:20,630 where the center of gravity was 70 00:03:25,150 --> 00:03:22,580 constantly to know how much fuel you 71 00:03:27,009 --> 00:03:25,160 were burning what the burn rate was at a 72 00:03:29,590 --> 00:03:27,019 particular time the angle the 73 00:03:32,140 --> 00:03:29,600 acceleration everything had to be 74 00:03:34,750 --> 00:03:32,150 understood so I did that for an entire 75 00:03:37,660 --> 00:03:34,760 co-op term was work and it was called 76 00:03:40,390 --> 00:03:37,670 weight weight and mass control and for 77 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:40,400 the Saturn the next term I co-opted I 78 00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:42,650 was very fortunate and being sent to the 79 00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:45,200 materials division which was part of 80 00:03:49,780 --> 00:03:46,790 propulsion vehicle engineering 81 00:03:52,990 --> 00:03:49,790 laboratory at the time and there I got 82 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:53,000 into some really great stuff one of the 83 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:55,310 things they were doing when I got there 84 00:04:00,610 --> 00:03:58,850 was trying to figure out I don't know if 85 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:00,620 you know what tribology means but it's 86 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:03,290 kind of lubrication surface physics so I 87 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:04,850 was in this group and what they were 88 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:06,620 trying to figure out was how do they 89 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:08,570 lubricate the clamps that were holding 90 00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:09,340 down 91 00:04:15,170 --> 00:04:12,280 Saturn five on the launch pad to make 92 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:15,180 sure they all released in the same 93 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:19,570 microsecond so it's not goose grease it 94 00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:21,609 wasn't bacon grease it wasn't anything 95 00:04:24,930 --> 00:04:23,380 that was currently available they were 96 00:04:27,689 --> 00:04:24,940 developing things that were called 97 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:27,699 molybdenum disulphide lubricants and 98 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:30,910 graphite mixed with that so I was the 99 00:04:35,460 --> 00:04:33,280 coop so I get to do a lot of the testing 100 00:04:37,469 --> 00:04:35,470 and it was a lot of long nights and a 101 00:04:40,409 --> 00:04:37,479 lot of long days but I loved it I'm 102 00:04:43,170 --> 00:04:40,419 working a real problem contributing 103 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:43,180 directly to this vehicle that everybody 104 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:45,850 was so excited about and I think it was 105 00:04:51,270 --> 00:04:49,180 just thinking about that as i sat there 106 00:04:52,740 --> 00:04:51,280 those long hours and one of the things I 107 00:04:57,719 --> 00:04:52,750 would think about was who would have 108 00:05:01,320 --> 00:04:57,729 thought to worry about that I was so 109 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:01,330 impressed as a as a young person with 110 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:05,130 the detail and the questioning and the 111 00:05:10,980 --> 00:05:08,530 curiosity and the the delving to know 112 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:10,990 all the answers about everything no 113 00:05:15,270 --> 00:05:13,270 matter how small and this being such a 114 00:05:16,890 --> 00:05:15,280 small thing but you had a really bad day 115 00:05:19,529 --> 00:05:16,900 if they didn't all release at the same 116 00:05:21,629 --> 00:05:19,539 time and of course it all worked so what 117 00:05:24,060 --> 00:05:21,639 I found was if you ask questions people 118 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:24,070 were so happy to help you and when I 119 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:25,570 went to materials lab it was the 120 00:05:29,730 --> 00:05:27,880 technicians I wanted to learn how to 121 00:05:32,129 --> 00:05:29,740 operate the equipment in the laboratory 122 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:32,139 I wanted to learn why they did what they 123 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:34,510 did I wanted to learn what the data 124 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:36,340 meant and how you accumulated the data 125 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:38,830 and how you analyze the data all those 126 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:41,380 things - part of finding answering a big 127 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:42,070 question 128 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:44,050 took that delving down into that 129 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:46,930 solution level but everybody wanted to 130 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:49,840 help they wanted to help you learn they 131 00:05:54,719 --> 00:05:52,630 wanted to help you do well in this very 132 00:05:58,050 --> 00:05:54,729 strange environment of working it was 133 00:06:00,300 --> 00:05:58,060 not school so it was there was never any 134 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:00,310 question about finding help and that was 135 00:06:04,140 --> 00:06:02,110 that way throughout my entire career a 136 00:06:06,570 --> 00:06:04,150 member when I became a chief engineer 137 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:06,580 and the first problem I got handed was a 138 00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:10,830 big discussion between dynamic sand and 139 00:06:18,779 --> 00:06:14,820 stress in a structure I called Bob Ryan 140 00:06:20,850 --> 00:06:18,789 Bob helped me I don't understand enough 141 00:06:21,610 --> 00:06:20,860 about this I'm not a mechanical engineer 142 00:06:24,070 --> 00:06:21,620 I'm not a done 143 00:06:27,219 --> 00:06:24,080 Amyx specialist so he gave me his 144 00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:27,229 version Jim Blair gave me the the the 145 00:06:31,390 --> 00:06:29,150 lecture on dynamics I said okay we're 146 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:31,400 all going to get in a room and I had 147 00:06:36,129 --> 00:06:33,710 them explain the problem to me by which 148 00:06:37,780 --> 00:06:36,139 they came up with their own solution so 149 00:06:39,610 --> 00:06:37,790 it was all about their getting people 150 00:06:41,230 --> 00:06:39,620 talking but it was never a question of 151 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:41,240 people being willing to teach you 152 00:06:49,109 --> 00:06:43,070 because they all loved what they did 153 00:06:53,369 --> 00:06:51,449 they were the ones also that started a 154 00:06:55,919 --> 00:06:53,379 little program here at Marshalls very 155 00:06:59,999 --> 00:06:55,929 low key called concept verification 156 00:07:02,369 --> 00:07:00,009 testing and I was fortunate enough to be 157 00:07:04,919 --> 00:07:02,379 engaged with that and dr. Mary Holland 158 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:04,929 Johnson endorsed Chandler and Whitaker 159 00:07:10,739 --> 00:07:07,209 was involved with us and we became a 160 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:10,749 female crew to CVT and the idea there 161 00:07:14,789 --> 00:07:12,969 was being able to be a scientist being 162 00:07:17,609 --> 00:07:14,799 able to interact in this modular 163 00:07:20,459 --> 00:07:17,619 environment on the ground but to help us 164 00:07:22,799 --> 00:07:20,469 understand how do you integrate how do 165 00:07:25,919 --> 00:07:22,809 you make the science operate how do you 166 00:07:29,669 --> 00:07:25,929 schedule crew how do you train them how 167 00:07:32,009 --> 00:07:29,679 do you communicate when their process of 168 00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:32,019 doing experiments is that they're alone 169 00:07:36,329 --> 00:07:33,759 doing their thing are you connected to 170 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:36,339 the ground it was harder than I thought 171 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:38,769 it would be because I thought it would 172 00:07:44,249 --> 00:07:41,769 be like walking into my lab and doing my 173 00:07:46,589 --> 00:07:44,259 thing with my hardware well no my 174 00:07:50,459 --> 00:07:46,599 hardware was up there it was not there 175 00:07:52,979 --> 00:07:50,469 and you couldn't just run to the toolbox 176 00:07:53,999 --> 00:07:52,989 if it wasn't on board that was part of 177 00:07:55,919 --> 00:07:54,009 the problems figuring out what do you 178 00:07:59,879 --> 00:07:55,929 take with you if it wasn't there you 179 00:08:01,049 --> 00:07:59,889 didn't have it so it was I think when 180 00:08:01,529 --> 00:08:01,059 they were learning to integrate the 181 00:08:03,419 --> 00:08:01,539 racks 182 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:03,429 it was interesting a little thing they 183 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:05,529 were they were trying a track approach 184 00:08:10,799 --> 00:08:08,050 where we'd roll the experiment racks in 185 00:08:12,269 --> 00:08:10,809 on the tracks well I went in there one 186 00:08:14,159 --> 00:08:12,279 day we were doing the checkout and 187 00:08:16,589 --> 00:08:14,169 testing getting ready to run our mission 188 00:08:19,409 --> 00:08:16,599 and I reached up and touched a rack and 189 00:08:23,489 --> 00:08:19,419 a spark about this long fluke the 190 00:08:25,769 --> 00:08:23,499 electrical had been fired from so we 191 00:08:28,259 --> 00:08:25,779 found out very quickly okay test and 192 00:08:31,109 --> 00:08:28,269 check out we need to do more tests and 193 00:08:33,029 --> 00:08:31,119 check out so that became a real effort 194 00:08:34,709 --> 00:08:33,039 especially for Space Lab and everything 195 00:08:36,779 --> 00:08:34,719 and a lot of that workhorse was done at 196 00:08:39,119 --> 00:08:36,789 KSC and teams from Marshall would go 197 00:08:41,459 --> 00:08:39,129 down there because you began to 198 00:08:43,170 --> 00:08:41,469 understand that if you're not as careful 199 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:43,180 with this as you were with the launch 200 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:45,430 vehicle then there's gonna be an issue 201 00:08:50,460 --> 00:08:47,290 they're gonna be things that don't work 202 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:50,470 and and it all needs to work it's a big 203 00:08:54,929 --> 00:08:52,870 effort to put these things together but 204 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:54,939 I think that was a quite an eye-opener 205 00:08:58,860 --> 00:08:57,040 for me I said wait a minute it doesn't 206 00:09:02,040 --> 00:08:58,870 mean just because somebody built it it 207 00:09:05,189 --> 00:09:02,050 was built right so it was a 208 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:05,199 learning point to say okay ask again it 209 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:07,809 was a lot of learning in not just 210 00:09:12,509 --> 00:09:10,420 operating in space Johnson Space Center 211 00:09:14,509 --> 00:09:12,519 is very good at that with their 212 00:09:18,210 --> 00:09:14,519 astronaut corps they do a fantastic job 213 00:09:20,429 --> 00:09:18,220 but then being able to take this science 214 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:20,439 and observations of science and the data 215 00:09:25,439 --> 00:09:22,480 of science and how do you make that work 216 00:09:28,769 --> 00:09:25,449 how do you get the most out of it so we 217 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:28,779 got out of CVT how do you configure Iraq 218 00:09:34,379 --> 00:09:30,910 how do you load an experiment how should 219 00:09:36,329 --> 00:09:34,389 you build them and it was it was quite a 220 00:09:37,999 --> 00:09:36,339 learning experience and then Marshall 221 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:38,009 got the assignment to actually develop 222 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:41,410 Space Lab and Jackley was a big project 223 00:09:45,929 --> 00:09:43,689 manager of that and that turned out of 224 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:45,939 course to be just a wonderful program 225 00:09:51,179 --> 00:09:48,910 that that led directly to accomplishing 226 00:09:54,389 --> 00:09:51,189 the science on Space Station I mean we 227 00:09:56,789 --> 00:09:54,399 knew that we were kind of a thing I mean 228 00:09:58,499 --> 00:09:56,799 an all-female crew and I guess everybody 229 00:10:02,449 --> 00:09:58,509 thought we'd get in fights but of course 230 00:10:07,199 --> 00:10:02,459 we never did but you know it's when two 231 00:10:10,139 --> 00:10:07,209 needs merge and I think there was a need 232 00:10:12,629 --> 00:10:10,149 at the time for for something that 233 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:12,639 reinforced the job that Marshall and 234 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:15,490 NASA was doing and that that looked more 235 00:10:20,009 --> 00:10:18,670 to the future and and I think with 236 00:10:22,530 --> 00:10:20,019 everything that was going on the country 237 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:22,540 was probably a good thing - I may be one 238 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:24,970 until 1975 they opened up the astronaut 239 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:27,610 selection to women and Marielle and I 240 00:10:35,669 --> 00:10:33,610 both applied to that in 75 so it was it 241 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:35,679 met our needs I think it was a learning 242 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:38,610 experience for all of us and it was 243 00:10:45,359 --> 00:10:41,529 intellectually mechanically stimulating 244 00:10:48,239 --> 00:10:45,369 to do it so I didn't I know we never 245 00:10:50,789 --> 00:10:48,249 felt badly about it I mean it was all 246 00:10:52,109 --> 00:10:50,799 goodness if it served them great and we 247 00:10:54,299 --> 00:10:52,119 were here working for the team at 248 00:10:56,789 --> 00:10:54,309 Marshall and we got a lot of learning 249 00:11:04,180 --> 00:10:56,799 out of it too that helped us much more 250 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:06,790 that was a shock I mean I love we were 251 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:09,350 invited to to go over and use the 252 00:11:13,889 --> 00:11:11,660 neutral buoyancy simulator but at the 253 00:11:16,810 --> 00:11:13,899 time we were also starting to really 254 00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:16,820 design and develop experiments for space 255 00:11:21,999 --> 00:11:19,040 but we didn't understand zero-gravity 256 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:22,009 how it felt how it affected the design 257 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:24,920 of your machinery Marshall was already 258 00:11:29,319 --> 00:11:26,810 training astronauts certainly in the 259 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:29,329 neutral buoyancy simulator and the 260 00:11:35,170 --> 00:11:31,730 opportunity to go over there and learn 261 00:11:37,809 --> 00:11:35,180 and work with hardware changed how we 262 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:37,819 thought about our hardware it wasn't 263 00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:40,810 like our lab and we needed that 264 00:11:46,689 --> 00:11:44,720 understanding very early on to be able 265 00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,699 to not only do things for ourselves but 266 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:48,560 advised those scientists that we from 267 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:50,690 the outside that we were working with as 268 00:11:55,900 --> 00:11:53,990 to how to do those things seeing myself 269 00:11:59,199 --> 00:11:55,910 in the scuba suit was nothing I ever 270 00:12:01,090 --> 00:11:59,209 really enjoyed but it it was I think it 271 00:12:05,139 --> 00:12:01,100 really contributed to the job it 272 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:05,149 contributed to our understanding of what 273 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:07,250 the people doing this stuff in space 274 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:09,649 really had to work with and and it's 275 00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:11,750 hard it's really hard and we didn't 276 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,480 appreciate that so much of it was about 277 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:16,880 just a human factors aspect of operating 278 00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:19,790 in space and I mean an astronaut knows 279 00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:21,860 that once they've been into space they 280 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:24,230 know it when they've been through the 281 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:25,850 neutral buoyancy training and zero 282 00:12:29,949 --> 00:12:27,850 gravity flight and stuff like that but 283 00:12:32,379 --> 00:12:29,959 we didn't have anything like that here 284 00:12:35,019 --> 00:12:32,389 but using the neutral buoyancy simulator 285 00:12:36,670 --> 00:12:35,029 that made human factors real it wasn't 286 00:12:42,869 --> 00:12:36,680 reading a textbook it was actually 287 00:12:47,609 --> 00:12:45,059 doors worked in the systems laboratory 288 00:12:50,689 --> 00:12:47,619 which I had hardly heard of at the time 289 00:12:53,489 --> 00:12:50,699 because I was still in materials lab and 290 00:12:56,669 --> 00:12:53,499 she was probably the best systems 291 00:13:00,749 --> 00:12:56,679 engineer I run into at that point in my 292 00:13:04,859 --> 00:13:00,759 career so she helped all of us as the 293 00:13:07,529 --> 00:13:04,869 rest of the crew understand how to get 294 00:13:10,139 --> 00:13:07,539 things together and what we observed and 295 00:13:12,029 --> 00:13:10,149 what needed to be communicated I think 296 00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:12,039 that was a big thing to when we would 297 00:13:17,129 --> 00:13:14,889 try to do something on board and and we 298 00:13:18,269 --> 00:13:17,139 would well it was a struggle or we were 299 00:13:21,239 --> 00:13:18,279 trying to do something different she 300 00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:21,249 said you need to tell them because it's 301 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:24,100 the engineers who are learning how we're 302 00:13:29,219 --> 00:13:26,769 going to go about doing this job and it 303 00:13:31,949 --> 00:13:29,229 was all about communicating that not 304 00:13:34,139 --> 00:13:31,959 just doing our thing but just as we were 305 00:13:36,769 --> 00:13:34,149 a team and other things how do you 306 00:13:40,169 --> 00:13:36,779 become that team between science 307 00:13:41,849 --> 00:13:40,179 operators and engineers to really learn 308 00:13:44,099 --> 00:13:41,859 those lessons and get that data out 309 00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:44,109 there and I'd say Doris was really 310 00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:46,720 instrumental in that she was a leader of 311 00:13:58,010 --> 00:13:55,210 I didn't feel like it was ever an issue 312 00:14:00,110 --> 00:13:58,020 I was the only woman in the engineering 313 00:14:03,890 --> 00:14:00,120 school so maybe that helped I was 314 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:03,900 acclimated but coming here actually in 315 00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:05,430 the materials division I wound up 316 00:14:10,220 --> 00:14:07,080 working with Anne Whitaker who was 317 00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:10,230 already here and Anne was tremendous as 318 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:13,320 a mentor and and all that but it was 319 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:15,060 never really an issue I think it was 320 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:16,950 again it was the time and we were all 321 00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:21,960 pressing 469 so we really had to get all 322 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:24,300 of us doing the job pulling the wagon in 323 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:26,330 the same direction at the same time and 324 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:35,890 I had so many mentors I had mentors I 325 00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:38,270 didn't even know I had I mean when 326 00:14:42,490 --> 00:14:40,520 you're 17 and 18 years old you don't 327 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:42,500 know what that means and and you're 328 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:43,910 taking book learn and you know and 329 00:14:47,950 --> 00:14:45,590 trying to translate it into this work 330 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:47,960 environment but I think back on all the 331 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:50,030 people that helped me people like and 332 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:53,270 people like Bob swing hammer Bob Ryan 333 00:14:58,210 --> 00:14:56,330 there were so many that contributed so 334 00:14:59,680 --> 00:14:58,220 much again the early it was the 335 00:15:01,420 --> 00:14:59,690 technicians that taught me really 336 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:01,430 hands-on stuff they said if you didn't 337 00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:02,690 get your hands dirty you weren't doing 338 00:15:10,390 --> 00:15:04,340 the job and I agree with that 339 00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,400 it's there was there was mentorship that 340 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:13,040 was not formal I don't think we had a 341 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:14,780 mentorship program here for many many 342 00:15:19,540 --> 00:15:17,180 years after that but somehow the 343 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:19,550 informal worked and I think it was part 344 00:15:24,070 --> 00:15:22,310 of the team structure the team attitude 345 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:24,080 when you're working with other people 346 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:26,690 and you can see they need help you help 347 00:15:32,110 --> 00:15:30,170 them and that was mentoring at the best 348 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:32,120 level I think very one-on-one very 349 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:34,010 personal they could be technical it 350 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:35,750 could be personal it could be anything 351 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:44,840 I think it was very much a team culture 352 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:48,470 and I think that's what made it work 353 00:15:51,879 --> 00:15:50,810 Marshall was a very strong team 354 00:15:55,069 --> 00:15:51,889 [Music] 355 00:15:58,850 --> 00:15:55,079 everybody shared their knowledge as 356 00:16:01,460 --> 00:15:58,860 already talked about I remembered a 357 00:16:03,889 --> 00:16:01,470 little further down then obviously the 358 00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:03,899 landing on the moon but when we launched 359 00:16:09,889 --> 00:16:07,620 Skylab and the shield came off I was in 360 00:16:12,199 --> 00:16:09,899 materials laboratory then as an engineer 361 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:12,209 talk about problem solving 362 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:14,550 Bob swing hammer was the head of the lab 363 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:17,790 and I have never met anybody that had 364 00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:21,870 more problem-solving capabilities arms 365 00:16:27,259 --> 00:16:24,180 around any problem and give you an 366 00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:27,269 excellent and practical solution so the 367 00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,279 laboratory immediately everybody 368 00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:31,680 coalesced Bob gave the marching orders 369 00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:33,990 we all went off to develop a solar 370 00:16:38,569 --> 00:16:36,120 shield to save Skylab we had worked on 371 00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:38,579 Skylab so long funny thing about that 372 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:43,230 was before it was launched someone 373 00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:45,570 realized there was no American flag 374 00:16:51,769 --> 00:16:48,230 painted on the side of the vehicle 375 00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:51,779 so our job then in the lab was to come 376 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:56,220 up with a flag that could be painted 377 00:17:01,309 --> 00:16:57,930 which means you had to have paint that 378 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,319 would survive that environment the real 379 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,079 problem with the paint was we had spent 380 00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:06,480 years testing materials to make sure 381 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:09,000 they didn't Crudup the optics because we 382 00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:10,860 were flying the Apollo telescope mount 383 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:14,100 on Skylab so we had kept those optics 384 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:15,720 clean for so long and then we had to 385 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:17,370 paint a red white and blue flag on the 386 00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:19,650 outside that was gonna be exposed to all 387 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:23,160 these optics oh my goodness well it was 388 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:26,130 typical Bob's wing hammer he came in one 389 00:17:32,539 --> 00:17:29,010 day with cans of paint set him down 390 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:32,549 these work on my boat and it's resistant 391 00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:35,490 to UV we're gonna see if it'll work on a 392 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:39,030 Skylab flag and by god it did the patent 393 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:42,090 the flag got painted on on plates we put 394 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:44,490 it in we baked it we out gassed it long 395 00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:45,540 enough that it wasn't going to 396 00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:47,309 contaminate the optics and there we go 397 00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:49,740 problem solved but it was just amazing 398 00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:51,390 how that man could think I mean who 399 00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:53,929 would think about paint come on 400 00:17:58,810 --> 00:17:56,480 hoodude I think one of the it's one of 401 00:18:00,279 --> 00:17:58,820 the things that developed in people at 402 00:18:02,529 --> 00:18:00,289 Marshall I know it developed me as a 403 00:18:04,509 --> 00:18:02,539 systems engineer because when you face a 404 00:18:07,509 --> 00:18:04,519 problem there is a core to the problem 405 00:18:10,149 --> 00:18:07,519 but then beyond that all the disciplines 406 00:18:13,149 --> 00:18:10,159 wind up getting involved in finding the 407 00:18:15,249 --> 00:18:13,159 solution and implementing it so you had 408 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:15,259 people in manufacturing you had people 409 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:16,970 in development you had people in 410 00:18:21,789 --> 00:18:19,730 research you had had people in the 411 00:18:24,430 --> 00:18:21,799 process to get this thing approved for 412 00:18:27,489 --> 00:18:24,440 flight so it took all of that together 413 00:18:30,879 --> 00:18:27,499 in a very integrated system approach to 414 00:18:32,739 --> 00:18:30,889 make it all work well you were you were 415 00:18:34,989 --> 00:18:32,749 immersed in it you were part of the 416 00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:34,999 system automatically when you came in 417 00:18:40,149 --> 00:18:38,240 and everyone had value everyone was 418 00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:40,159 contributing everybody had something 419 00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,100 they were good at or knew more about 420 00:18:47,549 --> 00:18:45,440 than somebody else so it all got thrown 421 00:18:49,570 --> 00:18:47,559 in the pot when the stew was amazing 422 00:18:52,989 --> 00:18:49,580 well there weren't a lot of boundaries 423 00:18:55,810 --> 00:18:52,999 between organizations you went did your 424 00:18:58,389 --> 00:18:55,820 job now I'm sure at upper levels maybe 425 00:18:59,769 --> 00:18:58,399 the all that was going on but boy if we 426 00:19:02,889 --> 00:18:59,779 needed to go work with somebody from 427 00:19:05,529 --> 00:19:02,899 systems or thermal or structures it was 428 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:05,539 all all for one and one for all it just 429 00:19:15,470 --> 00:19:08,210 didn't matter to us it was who could 430 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:20,060 I think the one that was really caused a 431 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,130 real click in my head was I was able to 432 00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:25,200 go down to the Cape and watch Apollo 8 433 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:28,950 launch and that was such an experience 434 00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:32,940 and such a it was emotional and it was 435 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:34,710 moving and it was the nation and 436 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:38,310 leadership and it was just so much of oh 437 00:19:42,050 --> 00:19:40,380 this is what I've been doing for these 438 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:42,060 years and this is what I want to do 439 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:45,630 forever so it was just being able to be 440 00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:47,430 there see that happen 441 00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:50,220 hearing everything that went on when 442 00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:52,710 those guys orbited the moon was just 443 00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:55,800 amazing I mean our planet was no longer 444 00:20:02,030 --> 00:19:59,520 alone the moon was connected to us and 445 00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:02,040 we were connected to it and then I was 446 00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:04,350 also able to go down and see Apollo 11 447 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:07,980 but I think Apollo 8 was the really the 448 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:11,730 one that grabbed me the most I said I'm 449 00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:13,260 a NASA engineer this is what I'm going 450 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:23,530 I think it was it was dynamic but it was 451 00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:27,530 also frustrating because we we get 452 00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:31,270 engaged in a program and then it would 453 00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:36,140 dissipate and while the formulation and 454 00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:39,350 the the job to work with Congress and 455 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:41,780 work with headquarters to really develop 456 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:43,850 the shuttle which course had been on von 457 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:47,510 Braun's plate from day one was was a 458 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:50,090 time of real uncertainty there were 459 00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:53,060 rifts and layoffs here at the center I 460 00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:55,760 was fortunate enough to be sponsored by 461 00:20:59,920 --> 00:20:57,440 NASA to go to graduate school in that 462 00:21:02,230 --> 00:20:59,930 same period of time so that kind of kept 463 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:02,240 me on a little better keel but we were 464 00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:03,710 also at the same time doing some really 465 00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:05,630 great stuff the Apollo application 466 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:08,990 program started it was and then it was 467 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:11,060 not about Apollo just going to the moon 468 00:21:17,010 --> 00:21:14,110 it was about science in space and 469 00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:17,020 putting men into space is one thing 470 00:21:23,140 --> 00:21:19,280 expanding the realm of science and 471 00:21:26,590 --> 00:21:23,150 exploration with people is something 472 00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:26,600 that really hadn't been done in space so 473 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:28,460 it was an opportunity I started working 474 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:30,320 on some material science experiments 475 00:21:35,530 --> 00:21:32,690 trying to understand how zero-gravity 476 00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:35,540 affected the way material solidified are 477 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:38,480 there better materials out there started 478 00:21:45,910 --> 00:21:41,450 looking at the behavior of fluids the 479 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:45,920 behavior of animals plants all these 480 00:21:50,730 --> 00:21:48,290 things that we did not know and of 481 00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:50,740 course that all culminated really in 482 00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:55,390 Skylab which was a great scientific 483 00:22:01,030 --> 00:21:58,400 laboratory we did astronomy we did 484 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:01,040 material science we did bioscience it 485 00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:03,680 was just amazing and being able to be 486 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:07,100 engaged in that at the at the scientist 487 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:08,990 level though I wasn't a scientist I 488 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:10,790 loved it and so it was a matter of 489 00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:12,740 taking that and the engineering and 490 00:22:17,950 --> 00:22:15,260 putting those together and then working 491 00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:17,960 with scientists who had proposed to fly 492 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:21,200 to help them understand what it took to 493 00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:25,160 get an experiment from an idea to the 494 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:28,220 hardware to approval for flight through 495 00:22:31,330 --> 00:22:30,500 the flight operations and then being 496 00:22:33,310 --> 00:22:31,340 able to bring 497 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:33,320 them back the data they needed to test 498 00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:35,690 their theories so I think it was really 499 00:22:40,750 --> 00:22:38,600 the beginning of a larger science 500 00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:40,760 program so some things were winding down 501 00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:43,220 but other things were increasing so by 502 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:46,790 the time we were ready to do shuttle we 503 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:49,610 were thinking about Space Lab we were 504 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:51,950 thinking about how do you make the 505 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:53,990 shuttle a vehicle that's really going to 506 00:22:58,360 --> 00:22:55,810 be able to accomplish science in space 507 00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:58,370 because you can do automated science a 508 00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:00,950 lot of observatories do that but having 509 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:03,350 the people interaction with the 510 00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:05,510 experiment is something that if that's 511 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:08,030 missed their observation and their 512 00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:10,970 knowledge and what you are gleaning out 513 00:23:15,580 --> 00:23:13,070 of it is so helpful to the scientist who 514 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:15,590 is still on the ground to understand 515 00:23:21,250 --> 00:23:18,110 what happens so I was involved in Sky's 516 00:23:24,130 --> 00:23:21,260 sky lab and then Space Lab so and then 517 00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:24,140 Space Station so that that thread of 518 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:27,470 science and exploration just carried 519 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:38,279 I think the legacy of Apollo is at many 520 00:23:45,180 --> 00:23:42,610 different levels I think one the legacy 521 00:23:47,639 --> 00:23:45,190 of that that leadership and that shining 522 00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:47,649 star that the United States put out 523 00:23:51,869 --> 00:23:50,470 there that leadership was maintained 524 00:23:53,789 --> 00:23:51,879 through these other programs we have an 525 00:23:58,529 --> 00:23:53,799 International Space Station which the 526 00:24:01,980 --> 00:23:58,539 u.s. primarily leads I think it's it's 527 00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:01,990 been at the human level it's connected 528 00:24:10,610 --> 00:24:05,769 people to space like they never had been 529 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:10,620 connected before and it a micro-level my 530 00:24:15,389 --> 00:24:12,970 seven-year-old granddaughter came up to 531 00:24:19,009 --> 00:24:15,399 me the other day and she is grandma did 532 00:24:23,879 --> 00:24:19,019 you know the universe is expanding 533 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:23,889 really to me I was so amazed that a 534 00:24:28,019 --> 00:24:25,750 seven-year-old would know that when I 535 00:24:31,049 --> 00:24:28,029 was a seven-year-old you didn't know 536 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:31,059 space existed didn't understand what it 537 00:24:35,789 --> 00:24:32,529 was or what it could be 538 00:24:38,129 --> 00:24:35,799 so the the generation of today not my 539 00:24:38,909 --> 00:24:38,139 children but my grandchildren take that 540 00:24:42,029 --> 00:24:38,919 for granted 541 00:24:44,879 --> 00:24:42,039 they understand space is an expansion of 542 00:24:47,369 --> 00:24:44,889 Earth they understand there's a big 543 00:24:49,409 --> 00:24:47,379 universe out there they understand there 544 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:49,419 are big dreams and big things that can 545 00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:51,850 be done which I wouldn't trade anything 546 00:24:57,899 --> 00:24:55,600 for to be to have been able to be 547 00:24:59,249 --> 00:24:57,909 involved in that and engaged in that 548 00:25:02,119 --> 00:24:59,259 that put that thought in my 549 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:02,129 granddaughter's mind was priceless 550 00:25:06,389 --> 00:25:03,850 wouldn't do without it 551 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:06,399 I think the stem programs that are going 552 00:25:10,769 --> 00:25:08,590 on in the schools now are a great step 553 00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:10,779 in the right direction because I think 554 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:13,049 they feed a child's curiosity and 555 00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:15,970 whether that kid is a boy or a girl 556 00:25:20,369 --> 00:25:17,620 I don't know that it really matters we 557 00:25:22,619 --> 00:25:20,379 need people that can think we need 558 00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:22,629 people to be creative we need people to 559 00:25:27,389 --> 00:25:25,419 be able to expand their thoughts and be 560 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:27,399 able to problem-solve understand how to 561 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:29,289 do that my granddaughter's actually in a 562 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:32,110 stem class so they come up with an idea 563 00:25:38,249 --> 00:25:35,110 and they build things they they actually 564 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:38,259 build things so that's I think that 565 00:25:45,539 --> 00:25:43,090 helps it's it's not enough I think there 566 00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:45,549 are enough impediments out there still 567 00:25:50,420 --> 00:25:46,920 in society that 568 00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:50,430 that creates a problem just images of 569 00:25:54,170 --> 00:25:52,800 boys versus images of girls I don't know 570 00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:54,180 if that's ever gonna change 571 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:55,560 but I know it's a lot better than it 572 00:26:00,080 --> 00:25:57,690 used to be several years ago there was 573 00:26:02,990 --> 00:26:00,090 like 30% of the engineering class some 574 00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:03,000 universities were female engineers and I 575 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:07,140 think that's amazing but it still it 576 00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:10,890 needs work it needs work I've got one 577 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:12,600 daughter who's an engineer I've got 578 00:26:16,550 --> 00:26:14,340 another one who's a financial person and 579 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:16,560 I've got a son who's a journalist so you 580 00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:19,170 know me raising them didn't matter but 581 00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:23,910 it it's a it has to be what the kids are 582 00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:25,500 interested in and that interest has to 583 00:26:30,050 --> 00:26:27,960 be peaked early very early in their 584 00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:30,060 lives and if you catch them when they're 585 00:26:33,710 --> 00:26:32,580 five six and seven years old they're 586 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:33,720 going to do something with it because